Want to Win? Get Engaged with Marc Solomon

Featuring Marc Solomon, Partner at Civitas Public Affairs

Jeff [00:00:01] We can't fix the world alone. But collaborating isn't easy. And systems are allergic to change. So how do we do it without losing our damn minds?

English [00:00:11] That is what we're here to find out.

English [00:00:14] I'm Jeff Walker.

English [00:00:15] I'm English Saul. Welcome to System Catalyst, the podcast that cracked the code for making the world a better place. Jeff. We're back. We are back for season two. I'm so pumped. I'm so excited to be kicking off our second season.

English [00:00:38] It's going to be fun. I'm really looking forward to this and and hanging out with you. And I gotta say, English. Your, your voice is a little rough. What's going on with you?

English [00:00:48] You don't like my new radio voice, Jeff? My. My husband is like, maybe you should go get a record deal, because, like, now it actually, like, sounds like maybe you could sing a tune or something, but the weather changing everything up my voice and sounded like this for like, four weeks now, so who knows what we'll see. You know what? There's going to be some changes this season. It's going to be a little different.

English [00:01:08] You know, I kind of feel like, The Wizard of Oz. Do you remember that movie? Do you watch it with your kids? English.

English [00:01:14] My eight year old is obsessed with Wizard of Oz. His last birthday was Wizard of Oz themed.

English [00:01:18] Well, there you remember the scene where they were in the Emerald City in the castle, and they were afraid of this big wizard. And then all a sudden, the dog comes and pulls the curtain aside, and it turns out that the wizard is just a guy. And I kind of feel like the same because, you know, we were doing a lot of interviews and we're kind of behind the curtain now. We're out in front. You know, Tulane is going to be here for an episode or two for us, but she's got her own podcast, which, you all should listen to.

English [00:01:49] Yeah. I just want to say a quick shout out to Tulane, because she really helped us build season one and build the vision for this podcast. And, for our listeners, please do check out her podcast, Say More with Two Way Montgomery. It's a great podcast.

English [00:02:04] Well, you know, we've also changed a couple of the things we know. My friend, Dan Harris, who has a great podcast, 10% happier, kind of said, you know, sometimes these kind of social change things when you listen to him, it's like eating vegetables. And, you know, I kind of agree. So, you know, I hated vegetables when I was a kid. Then I started liking them when I got them. So they were cooked well. So I hope we're going to cook this in a good fashion so people can, still learn but enjoy hearing what's going on.

English [00:02:31] Well, you know, I have to cut up, like, cauliflower and carrots and broccoli. And I started to hide it in my kids mac and cheese. And that's how they sort of get their vegetables. So maybe that's the metaphor. Maybe we're just going to make you a really good dish, but you won't even know you're eating your vegetables.

English [00:02:49] Well, there you go.

English [00:02:50] So, Jeff, tell us about this first episode of season, season two. I'm really excited to hear who you interviewed.

English [00:02:57] Well, in the first, conversation we're going to have the season is is with a someone I have known for a couple of years, Mark Solomon. He was in the forefront of the marriage equality movement and today is a partner Civitas Public Affairs group. When he started working on the marriage equality movement with his team, 27% of people around the United States supported marriage equality. Today it's 72%, and that wasn't that long ago. So it's kind of amazing to see a social change occur right before our eyes. And today it's almost like, of course, if you're, you know, LGBTQ, you can get married. You know, why not? It's not so true always.

English [00:03:38] You know, I'm really curious to Jeff how that distance between the marriage equality was accepted. Then to where it is now is I mean, that's stunning. How how did Mark do that?

English [00:03:52] Well, I think there's a couple things to look for in the episode. Look for stories. So instead of explaining things to people debating, why don't you tell stories? Mark was really great at going door to door and finding same sex couples, bringing them out and bringing them to talk to their legislator, and convincing the legislator in Massachusetts to change their vote. And boy, he went up and down, you know, getting Massachusetts to legalize gay marriage and then and having it lost in California, literally, it was legal. And then it was taken away and Mark was devastated. And then they finally had the saying, hey, it's not about the technical aspects of getting married. It's not about the tax savings you're going to get if you're a married couple. It's really about that core issue of love and that love experience, that love connection that everyone should have. Everybody in the world should be able to love someone. And that seemed to flip it.

English [00:04:50] As a really crucial nugget right there. Is that what is the nonpartisan, non divisive issue that can actually start a conversation and love is that. And you know you and I are both married and there's a a connection. There's a shared human experience of marriage and love that I think a lot of people can relate to. And I can understand how that was the thing that that really sort of pushed that that idea of persuasion into action.

English [00:05:18] Well, we can learn a lot from him in this era of polarization about how he brings people together. But let's listen to Mark and hear about how love wins. Welcome, Mark. You know, I want to go back a little bit with you, but, you know, started out by the amazing statistic that, Gallup poll had, in 1996, 27% of those surveyed supported marriage equality, and today it's 71%. There's not a lot of things 71% of America agrees on. So how did that happen? Is going to be what we're going to explore. But maybe first talk about why do you care and how did you get involved in this?

Marc [00:06:09] I care. You know, I'm a gay man. And so I remember there was a period of time in my early 30s, my close friends were getting engaged and getting married, and I was a groomsman in some of their weddings. And I, you know, just really recognized that. I mean, I had sort of a two part reaction. On the one hand, I was I couldn't have been happier for them that they found the person that I want to spend their lives with. But then I also was really frustrated that this could be the case for myself. And then more fundamentally, I, you know, I struggled with coming out like many LGBT people do. And the notion of being able to marry is such a powerful concept. It means that your government treats what I think is most fundamental about being gay or lesbian as equal. And so I just thought that if we could be allowed to marry, if the government didn't restrict marriage, it would be a powerful message to young LGBT people that they are okay. And so that combination of, sort of put me on a trajectory to, being involved for 15 years in this fight.

English [00:07:28] And how did you initially start connecting the dots and connecting with people that are your partners?

Marc [00:07:35] So I initially I'd always been sort of a political junkie and worked on Capitol Hill for a while. And, I moved to Boston to go to the Kennedy School, for a master's degree. And that was when the Massachusetts marriage case was filed.

English [00:07:55] Real quick, Mark is referring to a lawsuit against the Massachusetts Department of Health. It was filed by the LGBTQ rights organization Glatt on behalf of same sex couples who have been denied marriage licenses.

Marc [00:08:11] That was the one that brought marriage to the US for the very first time in 2004. And once I learned about the case, it was filed in 2001. I started thinking deeply about the possibility of marrying, and I was like, this is what I want to spend my time doing. And I started out as a volunteer with a small group called the Massachusetts Freedom to Marry Coalition. And what we would do is we'd go to pride festivals and help LGBT people and allies think about the notion of even having the opportunity to marry and, you know, and then going beyond to more progressive, straight audiences. And I was already in it, and I just stuck with it because it felt so important to hold on to in Massachusetts and win around the country.

English [00:09:01] So you tell the story in your book about those earlier days working in Massachusetts and trying to create, you know, that momentum and shift the story there. Maybe you could tell us a few of those stories about how you did that.

Marc [00:09:17] Yeah. Well, what our opponents were saying was that gay people wanted to get married as a political statement, and that the institution of marriage would be deeply harmed if same sex couples were allowed to marry. And so we needed to disprove that same sex couples had never been able to marry in the US. So Massachusetts was the very first opportunity. So what we needed to do was to show not not just tell, but show the state legislators who we were and why we wanted to marry, and that we wanted to marry for the same reason that anybody else did, and that we had long term, committed relationships. Massachusetts, although people really think of it as a super liberal, states as a quite diverse state. There are lots of, working class parts of the state. It's the second most Catholic state in the country. And the Catholic Church was our leading, position. So we needed to find couples in every part of the state who could sit down with their lawmaker, who may have never met a same sex couple, and, open themselves up and share who they are and explain why marriage was important to them. If they had kids, introduce the lawmaker to their kids. And, you know, we need to connect to people's hearts. And show them that, you know, again, that we weren't trying to harm the institution of marriage and wanted to be a part of it. We wanted to join that and that we too had loving and committed relationships and and that we were in their communities. One of the things that I think was the case early on is that people thought that gay people live in Massachusetts. They thought, oh, those are people in Boston. Those are people in Cambridge, those it's not in my little town, my community. So we needed to situate same sex couples in community with lawmakers and with others so that it's like, oh, it's not those people that I see on TV on the pride parade. It's the nice couple, the I guess they are a lesbian couple. And they're, you know, I see them out walking their dog every day and, you know, their brother. I play baseball with their brother on the high school team and all of that. Once that started to build, people were like, okay, it's I can treat you as, as an equal and I can want for you what what what I'd want for myself if I were in a similar some situation to be able to get married.

English [00:11:40] One of the messages is that, you know, hey, you know, you could go call on that legislator and try to convince them logically, right? But him having his own local, you know, examples and being able to touch and interact, etc. is the difference.

Marc [00:11:58] Yeah, it was central to our work, was emotionally challenging work to do that. It was terrifying for people to sit down with this powerful person in their community and talk about their sexual orientation, and why they wanted to be married and open their lives to them. They did it because of how much they cared. One of my favorite stories is the story of Deb and Sharon, a couple in rural Massachusetts, southern Worcester County. They had been together for 25 years, but they'd never been out to anyone, not even to their families. They went ahead and got married, but didn't tell anybody. And, that caused them to come out because they realized that the press was covering, you know, who was getting marriage licenses, and it was public record. And so we first called on them and asked them to if they would meet with their state lawmaker, who was a Democrat, but a conservative, pro-life, very Catholic guy. And, they were like, no, we we want people to do that, but that's not what we do. So we had to cajole, persuade, you know, and them, you know, help walk them through every aspect of it. And they did it after the first meeting, they talked for an hour and a half and or longer. And he said, you know, I have never met anybody like you before. I want to keep, you know, stay engaged. He's someone who had been opposed to allowing gay people to marry. And they spent, you know, they got together 4 or 5 times over the course of a few months, invited them to their home, showed them their wedding album. You know, they essentially took him on a journey. And, they were actually in the statehouse when he voted, finally voted on marriage. And we won by a handful of votes. And he came over to them afterwards and he said, you made the difference for me. It was you. And, that is a really empowering thing for a couple that had really lived in, in the shadows, minding their own business. And I think, I think that was a huge part of why we ultimately want in this country is that people knew that this was so important to same sex couples, that we were just going to keep coming back until we got it done.

English [00:14:28] Is the methods that you use, the smart campaigning that you've talked about applicable today. Can we use the same tools? I mean, going door to door and finding individuals. Not easy. A lot of people using social media now are using online. You know, many other different strategies. AI is coming in. Can we apply what you learned to today?

Marc [00:14:49] I think so. I think what we did in the marriage movement is we really focused in on the human stories. We also were very focused on telling stories that would resonate. We, you know, we tested lots of different messengers. We didn't use. If you look back at our movement, we didn't use a huge number of same sex couples in our ads, in our TV spots. At least we used a lot of parents who other straight people could connect with better feel like, oh, you know, I might not understand what it's like to be gay, but I could understand being sort of a regular parents. And my kid comes to me and says, I'm gay. How would then I, you know, act. And then the other thing that we did in the marriage movement that is also really important is that you have to show that your issue is not gonna cost politicians their jobs. And if politicians think that their issue is going to cost them their jobs, you're going to lose. They're not going to lose. And so we had to, you know, show them that even even if they felt in their gut the marriage was okay and that was the right thing and that voting our way wasn't going to end their careers. So all of that continues to be the playbook for making real transformative change on policy that's connected to human beings. It's all about connection versus fear. At its core.

English [00:16:26] In 2004, Massachusetts became the first state to make same sex marriage legal. Victory was sweet, but it didn't last long. Massachusetts legalizing same sex marriages ignited a firestorm of opposition across the country. Conservatives in 11 states pushed ballot initiatives banning same sex marriage. All 11 passed, including in the battleground state of Ohio, where Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry lost to Bush. Some analysts even suggested the same sex marriage was to blame for Kerry's loss.

Marc [00:17:02] The part that was so painful was that, you know, John Kerry was the nominee. He was not our ally back then. On the other side, a lot of the Democratic operatives looked at us after he lost and pointed out the gay community and said, you know, you guys are the reason that John Kerry lost. And that was that was really exceedingly painful. And there were a number of Democratic leaders and operatives who were like, you got to stop. You're going to harm this party arm. Our ability to get all these things done. And there are people in our community feel like we should push for something else. We shouldn't go this hard. And that's when we really had to do some soul searching. When you have your allies, you know, ostensible allies telling you that, you're doing something that's hurting them and hurting all of us. And, a group of people, about ten leaders in the movement gathered in, in a hotel in Jersey city and, mapped out the, you know, a what we called the roadmap to victory. And it was really a plan for how we were going to move forward if we didn't have the the leadership and if we didn't have the real demand with LGBT people that this is something they really wanted. I could have seen that go another way.

English [00:18:22] Oh it's amazing. Just think about that meeting of ten. You know, you guys are system catalyst. You guys are the ones that kind of say, how do I have a coherent roadmap and strategy I can rally people around? Well, it seems like there was a, dark night of the soul in 2008 when California overturned. The ability for marriage equality. And so, you know, talk to me about how that felt. I think here in Massachusetts a time and kind of I mean, where are you going to give up? I mean, how do you how do you stick with it or how do you change it? Or, you know, it's kind of get hard at times, you know, in this movement building world. And how do you feel?

Marc [00:19:01] Yeah. 2008 was a really tough time. I was in Massachusetts, but I'd gone out to California to help my friend and colleague who was running the campaign for the last couple of weeks, and that was actually in the sort of the boiler room, like the war room in the hotel in San Francisco. And everybody was celebrating. So many people were celebrating around us because Obama had just won the presidency, and we were still watching and waiting and and looking at the numbers. And they were looking worse and worse. And it was it just felt like on the one hand, there was this real leap forward for our country, but that our community was being wiped out. And even then, what people perceived as super liberal California, where Obama won by 20 plus percent, they were voting down, voting to take away the right of gay people to marry. It was exceedingly painful. And, you know, ballot initiatives are can be really painful. Events. It's it's different from a legislature or courts because, you know, it's neighbor versus neighbor and kids hearing about it in school and the whole it was just really vitriolic. And then there was just a it was a wake up call to lots of both people and allies that you can't take this for granted. You know, you need to step up and get involved. I think people that lived on the in the coastal parts of California were pretty shocked. This can't be right. So I think it was it was a real motivator to just go harder, build stronger campaigns and, do the work. And so what happened afterwards was, number one, there was this real movement to reassess the messaging and reassess how we talked about marriage. And, you know, and that was the love and commitment messaging came out of that moment. So we were trying to make the case initially that, you know, we can't see our partners if they're in the hospital. We, you know, if one of us dies and we don't, you know, and there's not a legal agreement in place, the biological family can swoop in. And and so we made that case. Well, but then, you know, we had this awful moment. Momentum after proposition eight passed in California that undid marriage for gay couples in California, where we, you know, through a lot of testing and listening to ourselves and research, we realized that, you know, straight people don't think of marriage as 1500 plus, benefits and protections. It's it's a lifelong commitment to someone you love. And that that's what that's what marriage is. And so we a sort of an moment we've been talking about, like, we need these benefits, we need these protections. But fundamentally, straight people and gay people wanted to marry because of deep love and commitment, not for a list of benefits. And so once we made that pivots, it made it so much easier to make the case, we were like, oh, I got it.

English [00:22:08] I want to go back and push a little bit. On the current state of politics, it seems like people are even more extreme these days on each side. It seems harder today than it was. If I'm not seeing it right.

Marc [00:22:22] There's no question things are more stratified now, and part of the gospel that I tried to spread into the world is the importance of persuasion, of not shutting down conversation. You know, you mentioned, that the marriage movement went from 27% to 71%. That's because we were able to convince people to come along with us. I mean, through lots of different techniques and approaches and lawsuits and dealing with people who were sort of negative and all of that. But, you have to engage. And I think right now there's just the people are very sensitive and there's the notion of shutting down the conversation. So I think that is a tendency of all sides to it that, you know, you're calling names rather than listening and engaging. So I think the good old fashioned engagement and persuasion is really important.

English [00:23:17] So if there's, any messages you could give to others that want to be somebody like yourself, change agents, system catalysts. What advice would you give? How do you get into this?

Marc [00:23:28] I think one thing that's really important is to think of the long game, not get too discouraged, like to really change something big doesn't happen overnight. I love the Frederick Douglass quote. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never has, and it never will. So, you know, if you're going to ask for something that's going to make some people angry, you know, you have to be ready to, sort of be in it for a while, you know? And then I also think, and this is, again, the thing I've been preaching a lot these days is just the the willingness to persuade. A lot of people feel like gay people or, you know, people who are from the not powerful side of the equation shouldn't have to do that work that nobody else is going to do it. So I think you you have to really engage and persuade and listen and just keep coming back and coming back over time if you want to, you know, if you want to get people to reconsider their perspectives. I think the last thing I'd say is that, you know, the other thing, our movement did really well and that is really important is to play politics, meaning, you know, back to your friends and, you know, there's nothing that get people's attention more than knocking out one of your opponents. So being really smart about that, finding people with means and, and raising funds, finding volunteers, and really showing to your allies, you'll be there through thick and thin. You know, I talked a lot about the softer side of organizing and persuasion, but the other side of bare knuckle politics is also a key part of building movement and putting points on the board money and.

English [00:25:14] All that persuasion and relentless political maneuvering paid off in 2015, over a decade after Massachusetts first legalized it, the Supreme Court declared same sex marriage legal throughout the entire nation.

Marc [00:25:30] I remember sitting at the Supreme Court during the final oral arguments and someone arguing for our opponents. The lead litigator arguing for our opponents was making the case that marriage is not primarily about love and commitment. It's about procreation. And, you know, the ability to have kids. And like as soon as he started saying, I was like, we've won this. What?

English [00:25:54] Well, I guess we should all start with love, right?

Marc [00:25:57] Yes. It's a good place to start.

English [00:26:00] Mark finally tied the knot 2017 after spending his career fighting for that right.

Marc [00:26:07] It was a big deal. It's like I got married relatively late in life. It was like the the haircare club for men. You know, I'd been working on working on that, and then I decided to buy the product myself. So, my husband, Dan Barrett, and I got married in, in Brooklyn five years ago, and, it was a it was a really big deal. My two real mentors in this movement, Evan Wolfson, officiated. And, Mary Bonauto, who litigated some of the big cases, read excerpts from the decisions. And it was really just a totally, happy, contented place for me. And, just being able to say that Dan is my husband, people are like, oh, I got it. And, you know, that's one thing. And I think the other is that we did make this commitment to one another. And so I think, you know, it's different from being boyfriends or, you know, where, you know, you're like, oh, you know, if we have this argument and maybe this isn't going to work out like there's much more focus on making things work out, you know, solving problems, you know, learning to communicate even when it's really unpleasant and all of, all of that because we are really both in it. And I think that that's another thing about, about being married.

English [00:27:31] It's a symbol of permanence, right? Yes. You know, we're going to stick through it thick or thin, and particularly with kids, you know, it's a great signal to them as well.

Marc [00:27:40] Right? You know, now, Dan and I are raising a four year old and a two year old, so we're, we're in the middle of, in the middle of it all. There.

English [00:27:50] The three days, my grandpa had four grandkids, and so, little balls of joy. So, yeah, it's not always the same for parents. It was great talking to you. Thanks for your Grace. For taking the time.

Marc [00:28:03] Yeah. You got it, Jeff. Thanks.

English [00:28:17] That's it for today's show. Please don't forget to subscribe to System Catalyst so you don't miss out on the new episodes. Also, do us huge favor by reading our podcast hit, leaving us a review. Thank you so much for joining us, and we'll catch you all in the next episode. Before we go, I'd like to thank our producers at human Group media. We'd also like to thank our incredible network of partners who are supporting our mission the School Foundation, the Aspen Institute, Echoing Green, Dr. K Foundation member collective, Virgin Unite, she released their own Africa outreach project, Boldly Go philanthropy scenarios for Global Nexus and New Profit. If you're interested in becoming a system catalyst, you'd like to learn more about our partners, please visit System catalyst.com.