The Moth: Storytelling Leads to Change

Featuring Sarah Austin Jenness, Executive Producer of The Moth, and Brandon Grant-Walker Director of Marketing at The Moth

Sarah: [00:00:32] Other stories take us from one place to another. And so if you start in a place where you thought you knew the answer and you end in a place where you realize you don't, I think that is quite effective to start a conversation. So if you're studying the root of these larger issues, personal stories are of utmost importance because in many cases there are angles, things that we didn't consider and trying to find a solution. [00:01:05][33.0]

Tulaine: [00:01:13] You're listening to System Catalysts. Each week you will hear personal stories of change makers who are bringing more inclusive connective system level solutions to our most persistent challenges. I'm Tulaine Montgomery. When people think of systems change, they often think of pragmatic, measurable change. But to change systems, we must first start with changing our beliefs. This requires us to learn to listen to one another, especially in today's fragmented society. Yet we rarely sit down with people different from us to hear their stories and perspectives. Unless you've come in contact with The Moth. [00:02:13][60.5]

Sarah: [00:02:15] The Moth started in 1997 as a small New York hip literary ticket. I think that's what they called it back in the day, which now sounds so, so, so strange. [00:02:28][12.8]

Tulaine: [00:02:29] That is Sarah Austin Janis, executive producer of The Moth. [00:02:33][3.7]

Sarah: [00:02:34] But it was really meant for writers or people who knew writers or people who were in the know, let's say. And now it's broadened so that more and more people are listening and sharing. And, you know, I love that people are using stories to make a difference in the world. [00:02:50][15.4]

Tulaine: [00:02:53] Today, The Moth hosts 600 live events a year across six continents. Their podcast, The Moth Radio Hour, is downloaded 100 million times annually. By elevating stories that challenge dominant narratives. The Moth is creating empathy and community all around the world. In this episode, we'll be tackling one of the most powerful tools for Systems Change storytelling. In this episode, Jeff Walker spoke with our guests Sarah Austin Jenness and Brandon Grant Walker. [00:03:29][35.9]

Jeff: [00:03:33] Welcome, Sarah. Thank you for taking the time to be with us and talk about your experience and storytelling with The Moth. Love to me. You started out with your own story a little bit. [00:03:46][12.7]

Sarah: [00:03:46] Sure. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm just delighted to be here with you today. Many, many years ago, I was directing theater in New York and I had to fill a small theater house somehow. So I invited everyone that I knew. And at the time I was freelancing and trying to find my way and loved documentary, film and theater. And one of the gentlemen I invited came up to me afterwards, and he said, What are you doing after this? And I thought I would just be honest. And I said, I'm looking for a home. I want to find a place where I can plant roots and I want to help something grow, something that I believe in. And he said, Well, have you ever heard of The Moth? And it was funny because I had handed out programs one night at The Moth, only about a month prior. And when I was handing out programs and watching these people tell stories, I felt almost like I was levitating like an inch off the ground because it was everything that I had ever loved. It was theater, but people weren't playing roles. They were just themselves. And it was documentary. It wasn't a full the full story of your life. You had to select which experience you wanted to mine for meaning. And it was a group of people who I didn't think were best friends walking into the theater, but the audience were surely closer when they left. And so when this guy said The Moth was hiring, I had tears in my eyes and I said, Wow, I think that would be my dream job. And so he was friends with Catherine Burns, the artistic director of The Moth, and she called her and said, I think I found your person. [00:05:25][98.2]

Tulaine: [00:05:26] That was 18 years ago. [00:05:27][1.2]

Sarah: [00:05:28] I love to say, Jeff, that the heartbeat is the same. It's just that we're reaching more people and the stories are richer and they're perhaps a little bit deeper and they're they show a larger scope of humanity in the world than before. The mission of the office is truly to build community through personal storytelling, is to build empathy. It's to change hearts and minds. It's to make us feel like we're a little bit closer as to make us see the commonality and to honor the diversity also of the human experience. [00:05:59][30.9]

Tulaine: [00:06:03] The month inspires people to tell their stories and listen in many different ways. They have an open mic series where anyone can throw their name in a hat if they want to tell the story around the night's theme. On their mainstage series, you can hear from storytellers they handpicked across the country. They also bring storytelling tools to high schools and in community groups. They also collaborate with activists and advocates through their global programs. [00:06:28][24.8]

Sarah: [00:06:29] For most stories are true, their personal something is at stake. They are told within a time frame. 5 minutes for open mic slam nights, 10 to 12 minutes for our Moth mainstage shows. And so as we're working with storytellers, I like to say, why is this a story that only you can tell? These stories are like fingerprints. So how can you show us something that's really important to you and help us walk for five or 10 minutes in your shoes? Because I think when you walk into a theater together, theater is really a liminal space where everyone is listening together. So while people think The Moth is all about storytelling, it is. But it's also a place that inspires people to listen. I like to think of our directors and our instructors in our workshop series as story midwives or story birth workers. We will help you tell the story that you want to share with the world or stories. In some cases, some storytellers come back to tell more than one story. And I think that's quite important to the themes. So we usually find themes that are provocative yet broad. So we can program the freshest stories that we've found. [00:07:43][74.7]

Tulaine: [00:07:46] Some examples of the most themes, our lessons back to school drive and luck. All sorts of stories are welcome. To date, The Moth has had 60,000 people tell stories on stage and every year they have about 6000 new stories told. [00:08:05][18.3]

Sarah: [00:08:07] The great thing about personal stories is that everyone has them. Everyone has more than one. And the moth is dedicated to the art and the craft of personal storytelling. But we want to promote the art of personal storytelling. You don't necessarily have to tell your story on a moth stage. We're just exciting people to not let this beautiful art form die. To keep it very much alive and actually to help it thrive. I think that personal stories help us to understand world issues in an immediate way. So the issue is not out there. It's actually in your backyard or in your heart, because the best stories, whether they're told at The Moth or anywhere else in the world, on any platform, the best stories are not just plot. The best stories have emotion. And that change of emotion. And the best stories have an arc. So something is at stake for you. And if you can be a little bit vulnerable. I know that word is used a lot these days, but if you can be a little bit vulnerable and let the audience in on what matters to you and why, the context of why it matters, it helps the audience of whomever is listening feel like it's important to them, too. They're rooting for you. They want to know how it ends. They'll pull their car over. We have a lot of driveway moments at The Moth, The Moth podcast, The Moth Radio Hour. [00:09:32][84.1]

Tulaine: [00:09:33] The Moth Radio Hour has been running since 2009. It can be heard on more than 500 stations nationwide. [00:09:39][6.1]

Sarah: [00:09:40] People will write in and say, I sat in the driveway or I had to pull over to the side of the road, you know, so gripped I needed to know whether she got the girl. I needed to know what was going to happen in the end. And I think that helps us feel a little bit less alone. But it also reframes how we see the world. And I think that's where the social change happens. That's the grassroots effort. That's how one story can change the world. [00:10:11][30.5]

Jeff: [00:10:12] And you've had about then something 20,000 plus stories told in lots of different ways and variations. And I know it's impossible to pick one, but maybe an example of one or two that you said, Hey, let me give you an idea of what this feels like. I listened last night to several T Dixon in particular and some others, and they're hugely impactful. And maybe you just give the audience a little bit an idea of of what these stories are like. [00:10:38][26.1]

Sarah: [00:10:39] Sure not Stories are true. They're personal. Something is at stake. And you mentioned Ted Dixon. She was one of my favorites. Still is one of my favorites. She passed away about two years ago. She told her story at an open mic slam night in Los Angeles. She is an ER, a doctor. And at the time the story takes place, she lets the audience in, in this very vulnerable way about the rigors and the emotional effects of being a first responder and a doctor in this capacity. [00:11:13][33.8]

Speaker 4: [00:11:15] And it was just a dark time for me. I was in a dark place. I didn't know if I wanted to continue with my surgery training. I didn't know if I wanted to continue with medicine at all. I was depressed. I mean, I was just I was really hurting. [00:11:25][10.6]

Sarah: [00:11:26] Right. When she's at her her end or struggling with some of her her own thoughts. A woman is in a terrible young woman is in a terrible car accident, and she is admitted to the hospital. And over the course of quite a long time and this young woman is in a coma, t talks to her and T tells her it's going to be okay. And T even though this young woman can't speak, t tells her exactly what's going to happen, what kind of shot she's going to get, what kind of test she's going to have. And there are all these different parts in the longer version that I would love for everyone to listen to it. There are some reveals that I won't reveal here. [00:12:07][40.1]

Tulaine: [00:12:08] You can find this episode in the show notes. [00:12:09][1.7]

Sarah: [00:12:11] But in the very, very end, TI changes hospitals and loses track of this young girl. And then about a year later, she's walking through the new hospital and she hears. Dr., is that you, Dr. Dixon? Is that you? And she turns and she's just who are you? And it's the young girl. And she says, Well, how do you know who I am? [00:12:34][23.6]

Speaker 4: [00:12:35] And she said, Oh, well, I recognize your voice. You are the one who talked to me. So all those times, the I would say, Savannah, this is going to hurt, but I'm going to do everything I can to try to make it as painless as possible, but it's going to hurt a little bit. She had heard me and she remembered it. And and so I knew that treating people like a human being, it does matter and does make a. And for me, that's when I finally realized. But all that sacrifice and all that blood, sweat and tears, it was worth it. Thank. [00:13:17][41.8]

Sarah: [00:13:19] And it is very much. Geoff, thank you for making me cry here. But this is very much about the power that one person can have in making someone or a group of people feel seen and heard and cared for. But these stories are wide ranging. Sometimes they're hilarious. This one of a kind. They can be romps or they're road trips. In some cases they are terribly tragic. It's it's really whatever story you think or stories you think will help someone better understand who you are. [00:13:53][34.2]

Tulaine: [00:14:31] While most stories don't directly ask people to go out and make a positive impact in the world, they certainly provide inspiration. [00:14:38][7.0]

Sarah: [00:14:39] The Moth stories don't end with a call to action, but the call to action, I think, is implied on the Moth mainstage, and that is to listen on a deeper level, to maybe see your neighbors in a different light or to tear down some of these walls, maybe your own walls, or maybe reconsider these preconceived notions that you might have. And I think what the Moth does best is to elevate stories that challenge dominant narratives. We say there's an impact on the storyteller. There's an impact on the community that's built through the workshop series. But then there's also a deep impact on the listeners, whether they're in the room or someone is telling the story or the listeners who are in their cars are listening on the podcast or listening alone as part of this larger community. But I am just fascinated by this ripple effect. [00:15:44][65.0]

Jeff: [00:15:46] So in this social change world, imagine somebody telling the story of There's a problem in my city and homelessness. And we all need to rally together to go address that. And I want to tell you some stories about some people who are homeless and some things that we've done with them together. But there's not always a result that says we have the perfect answer. We're going to be learning along the way and just join with us to figure out the solution. You know, how do you think about storytelling in that mode? [00:16:17][31.1]

Sarah: [00:16:19] Stories take us from one place to another. The stories that I find that are most effective don't end with a bow. Don't end very neatly. And so if you start in a place where you thought you knew the answer, and you end in a place where you realize you don't. I think that is quite effective to start a conversation. Plus with a theme or an issue, a world issue as complex as homelessness, you know, you'd want to have many different kinds of stories. I think homelessness is closer to each of us than we probably realize. And so we actually had a night that was all about homelessness. It was called Home Lost and Found. And there was one story about a fire. There was another story about someone who had suffered from a debilitating health condition and choices had to be made and another person left an abusive marriage and then found themselves without a home. And so if you're studying the root of these larger issues, personal stories are of utmost importance, because in many cases there are angles, things that we didn't consider that the layperson wouldn't consider, and trying to find a solution. [00:17:36][77.8]

Tulaine: [00:17:40] At moth events, people better understand how social issues affect people in a personal way. They might feel inspired to find solutions or simply to spread this storytelling culture. [00:17:51][11.2]

Brandon: [00:17:52] Once you experience a workshop and once you've shared your story and you know you feel I can't emphasize how much like you feel seen and heard, it's just something contagious that you want to pass on to everybody in your life. [00:18:04][11.1]

Tulaine: [00:18:05] That's Brandon Grant Walker, director of marketing at The Moth. [00:18:08][3.3]

Brandon: [00:18:09] We've had people go off to write memoirs. We've had workshop attendees go off to try standup comedy and, you know, whole different careers. We have many workshop attendees who come back to us and learn how to become story instructors and facilitators themselves because they found the experience so transformational. And so they want to pass that on to someone else. We have many people on our staff, I think on each of our programs, on the education program, on the community program, on the global program. We have full time staff members who came to us through those programs. So we advertise that we need a, you know, a program manager or whatever it was, and they applied and now they work at the mart. So it's really this beautiful sphere. [00:18:56][46.8]

Tulaine: [00:18:58] Brandon himself applied for a job at The Moth because he had experienced one of their events after years working in the publishing industry. He was looking for a change. [00:19:07][9.1]

Brandon: [00:19:09] And then in early 2019 saw that the market was looking for a director of marketing. And I made it my absolute mission to get that job. Nothing was going to stop me from getting this job. And, you know, like many people, I knew The Moth from a very public facing standpoint. I listened to the podcast, I heard the radio show, I'd been to a mainstage, I'd been to a story. SLAM And when I came on, I was I was actually on one of my big roles was building and operationalizing the marketing department. There had not been an official marketing team at the mouth for close to 25 years, and that blew my mind, but also showed me the power of the content. [00:19:51][42.7]

Tulaine: [00:19:53] Besides building the marketing department, Brandon's efforts have focused on increasing the diversity of the moth. [00:19:58][5.3]

Brandon: [00:20:00] Our community engagement program, where we work with other non-profits, communities for veterans wrongly incarcerated, people's rightfully incarcerated people's, you know, LGBTQ, a black voices. You know, oftentimes these communities have such shared experiences, but they come to the table not thinking that their stories matter. And when they leave a workshop, they feel more bonded to each other and they see themselves differently. We always want to be better. Does The Moth have a perception that it's a predominantly white focused organization? Yes. That's something we hear every single day. Do we work day in and day out to dispel that? Yes. And it's important and it's what we do. We've made big efforts to ensure that when we present a mainstage, you know that at least half of the storytellers are either people of color or LGBTQ or from different communities. When we're listening to stories, we're listening for, okay, what is this story focused on? How many stories are we hearing on our stages that deal with trauma from the black community? We don't just want trauma stories. We want story. We want the full range of the community. So we look at all of those things and try to make sure that we are presenting diverse stories and experiences, not just on the stage, but on the radio and on the podcast and in our workshops. So we want our audiences and we want our storytellers to feel and be more diverse. So, you know, one of the things that we're doing to kind of think about that is we're working with a group consultancy outside of Chicago called Nova Collective, and we're doing this huge audience development and engagement campaign to find more bipoc audiences, to find more LGBTQ audiences, and to find more audiences from people with disabilities. And so we've conducted focus groups where you've asked specific questions around what helps you to feel like you belong in any events, but also in a moth event? What are some of the things that, from a marketing perspective we can do to show you that these events are safe spaces for you to share your stories and things of that nature? And so it's very important for us to ensure that we're nurturing spaces where everybody feels like their stories matter and are important. [00:22:27][147.1]

Tulaine: [00:22:28] Another one of their efforts to increase diversity was the moth pop up porch. [00:22:32][3.8]

Sarah: [00:22:34] It was a porch that we traveled around. It looked like a tiny home, and we traveled it around to six cities in the United States. And we inspired people to pitch or to share full versions of their own stories. And in some cases, people who came up to the pop up porch and stood on the porch and shared stories already knew of the moth, but in most cases they were brand new to the moth. And so this was an effort to find brand new stories, new communities, to inspire people to share their own stories. Each pop up week culminated in a an open mike story slam. So we were in Birmingham. We were in New Orleans. We were in Tulsa, Oklahoma, six cities total. It ended in Atlanta. And many of those stories and those pitches are now being developed from off main stages all around the country. So it's yet another effort to diversify, to include to not wait for people to come to us, but to actually mobilize and go out to communities that we think are under heard and underserved and we want to hear more from. [00:23:50][76.7]

Tulaine: [00:23:54] Besides their efforts in the U.S., the Mosque Global Community program works with people in the Global South. These advocates are sharing stories on issues such as gender equality, infectious disease control, clean water and others. [00:24:08][13.7]

Sarah: [00:24:09] The people who are taking our global workshops are the activists, are the advocates, and so they're already wanting to use stories to deliberately make change in the world. Some of our other storytellers, I think, of course that's of interest, but it may not be the primary reason they're telling their story. These activists that we work with, with the Gates Foundation and the Ford Foundation and U.N. women and other partners, they're workshopping tools and techniques to use their personal stories in their work, because, as you said, some of these world issues seem so far away to people who are designing budgets and creating these laws and these policies. But once you hear about, in some cases, the inability to inherit money just because you are a female, you know, you start to look at the world a little bit differently and maybe decide to vote in a different way the next time. We now have eight instructors and that number is growing. The instructors are from India and Africa and probably soon to be from Thailand and places close to Thailand, thanks to this UN Women project. But in many cases, the work that I've done and the work in the global program, since it is with advocates and activists, we have to be careful that the story is told from a place of a scar and not a wound, something that has healed instead of something that is fresh because it becomes a different form of storytelling. There is such thing as trauma, storytelling and the act of telling and retelling something that is still fresh will help you process it. But The Moth is storytelling as an art, and so you have to have some distance from the events that you are mining for meaning. So knowing when a person is still in trauma is very important in these workshops. Being able to have the language to talk people through a scene that they can't quite get out of is something that comes with time and a lot of training, and it's something that we see more and more as people are wanting to talk about experiences that have forever changed them. We want to make sure that we have people from different backgrounds and from different communities who can really speak to the needs and the interests of everybody. [00:26:34][144.9]

Tulaine: [00:26:38] Stories from the Moth influenced people's understanding of certain issues and often their actions. But Sarah admits that this kind of impact is hard to track, yet that doesn't make it any less powerful. [00:26:49][11.3]

Sarah: [00:26:50] People are using stories to make a difference in the world. People tell moth style stories on the floor of the U.N. People have told my style, stories and convenings all over the world and community groups, and it's my hope that we'll be able to inspire more and more people to share personal stories, but that we'll also be able to track the impact. Storytelling is a soft skill. It's an art form, and I think figuring out ways in which we can track the ripple effect of these stories to me is fascinating because one story really can change the world. The Moth is so inclusive that when you tell a story here, you know, you do feel that sense of community and that bond. And so we have a lot of people who come back and tell multiple stories or are in the audience to hear new stories. And so we know anecdotally that change is being made using personal stories. But tracking it has been tough. I've wondered if maybe there's an app we can create or if there's a way in which people can be more active in noting where and when and to whom they're telling these stories. But then the question becomes what happens to the story listeners? And what do they then go out and do? Because they've heard this story and it's inspired them to think about the world in a different way. And I think tracking what the storytellers are doing is probably the easier part, right? But then tracking what the millions of listeners are doing, how would you do that? It's something that I think maybe we just have to know is happening and feel in our hearts. [00:28:33][102.1]

Tulaine: [00:28:37] And now our Rapid Fire segment. [00:28:38][1.9]

Jeff: [00:28:43] What's one word to describe your journey as a catalyst in this space? [00:28:46][3.4]

Sarah: [00:28:48] Heartfelt. [00:28:48][0.0]

Jeff: [00:28:50] And what's one of the most gratifying moments along the journey? [00:28:52][2.1]

Sarah: [00:28:53] Seeing people who didn't think they had a story. Then share something from their hearts and walk off the stage asking, When can I do that again? [00:29:02][9.0]

Jeff: [00:29:04] And what about your organization keeps you up at night? [00:29:06][1.9]

Sarah: [00:29:07] Everyone in the world has a story. And so how can we be most effective and help everyone who wants to share? [00:29:14][6.8]

Jeff: [00:29:15] So if people want to go down this path that you've gone down and be this catalyst, be this integrator, this connector. Where do they start? [00:29:23][7.6]

Sarah: [00:29:25] Start by considering decisions that you had to make that change the course of your life. Start by choosing one person to tell one of your stories to and start by opening your mind a little bit and finding stories in the world. Stories are everywhere. I don't think people stop and listen like they could. Personal stories build empathy. Personal stories help you reframe the world. They tear down walls, as you said. When I'm working with a storyteller. I say these stories are like fingerprints. So consider why are you the only person who can tell the story? And, you know, wonderful stories involve details. They involve the little things that you noticed. They involve dialog scenes. They are not just plot. They involve feeling and the evolution of your feelings. So it's not just this happened and this happened and this happened. It's the context of how you felt while those things were happening. So the more you can sit inside of the story as you're telling it, it helps us sit there next to you and it helps us go through the journey just like you did. And at the very end, you can't help but feel closer to the person who listened and the person who told because it was a little piece of them, a little piece that made them who they are. [00:30:53][87.9]

Tulaine: [00:31:02] If you want to learn more about the moth, head on over to the moth, dawg. You can also visit our web site System Catalyst dot com where you will find resources related to this week's episode. That's it for today's show. Please don't forget to subscribe to System catalysts so you don't miss out on our new episodes. Also, do us a huge favor by reading our podcast and leaving us a review. Thank you so much for joining us and we'll catch you all in the next episode. Before we go, we'd like to thank our producers at Human Group Media. We'd also like to thank our incredible network of partners who are supporting our mission, echoing Green, DARPA Foundation, Population Services International, Virgin Unite. Charlize Theron, Africa Outreach Project. Boldly Go Philanthropy, Synagogues, The Philanthropy Workshop, Nexus and New Prophet. If you are interested in becoming Assistant Catalyst and would like to learn more about our partners, please visit System Catalyst AECOM. [00:31:02][0.0]