LONG-LASTING SOCIAL CHANGE FROM THE BOTTOM-UP WITH ELENA BONOMETTI

Featuring Elena Bonometti, CEO of Tostan

Jeff [00:00:01] We can't fix the world alone. But collaborating isn't easy. And systems are allergic to change. So how do we do it without losing our damn minds?

English [00:00:11] That is what we're here to find out.

Jeff [00:00:14] I'm Jeff Walker.

English [00:00:15] I'm English Saul. Welcome to System Catalyst, the podcast that cracked the code for making the world a better place.

Jeff [00:00:29] English. Great to be with you again.

English [00:00:31] Hey, Jeff.

Jeff [00:00:32] So, what do you been up to since we last spoke?

English [00:00:35] I'm really glad you asked me that because I wanted to get your opinion. I am seriously considering getting a few cows. You know, I already have some alpacas and some chickens. And so I'm thinking about what is the next phase in my farm journey. And I feel very strongly that it is cows.

Jeff [00:00:54] That's so interesting because my daughter, who has a farm she's been building, also wants to get cows. What kind of you get it?

English [00:01:01] So I'm really pushing for getting a couple of Highland cows, mostly because I think that they are just so cute.

Jeff [00:01:11] Oh, Scottish Highland cows. Nice. We both have the same kind of path going on here. We've become farmers. Can't wait to see you with the pitchfork out in front of your farm. Getting a picture of that to send around.

English [00:01:23] Well, absolutely. And. And you too. I'm waiting. I'm still waiting for your Christmas card with you on the tractor. So, Jeff, didn't you just do an interview?

Jeff [00:01:31] Yeah. I had a fun interview with Helena Bonham, who's CEO of Test Time. And, just done. It's been around over 20 years, headquartered in Dakar, Senegal. And it's cool. It works to bring movement building skills to, the rural and remote African communities and, do social change, positive social change through these three year long processes that they put in place. And they've all year reached 5 million people across eight African countries. They've worked on female genital cutting with over almost 6 million people, child marriage with almost 10,000 people.

English [00:02:09] I mean, that's amazing because I, you know, I'm unfamiliar with female genital cutting and, it is a really deep rooted issue, really deep rooted. And it's gone from generation to generation to generation of, of continuing that practice. So I'm really curious to hear their process and how they, they start to sort of un seed that deep rooted behavior.

Jeff [00:02:31] Oh, you'll hear from Elena for the details. But rather than a Western group coming in and telling people don't do that. They bring in these individuals who help set up these meetings throughout the weeks with mothers saying, hey, do we really need to do this? You know, let's talk about the health issues related to it. Let's talk about the religious components of this. And they bring an imam in and, you know, tell them, you know, this practice has never been written in the Koran. So you can stop it and you'll be fine. So, to me, that's, you know, the beginning of this social change model, which they've now taken to many other issues and or become a training organization. So they have, trained over 900 nonprofits and, government organizations. And these practices so far.

English [00:03:19] 900. Wow. I mean, that's the epitome of what we're talking about here with scaling systems change. I'm really excited to hear more of the details of the how and what it really took to sort of get to that level of, of 900, you know, organizations. That's awesome.

Jeff [00:03:37] Well, here we go. Let's listen. We'd love to hear your story. You know, it's amazing the path that you have taken to get to where you are. So maybe you can tell our audience a little bit about that path.

Elena [00:03:54] Thank you. Jeff. I think what got me here is passion, lots of energy, and I think a natural capacity to listen to people's stories and how I think to fuel that into, again, that passion and that energy. Because indeed, to do this work as social change makers, as system change makers, as you define it, in particular in this neighbor of yours, I think it takes a lot of passion and energy and courage. And sometimes we go through, you know, bumps. But we need that inspiration. And I think I got that inspiration when I had the opportunity and the privilege to travel to Africa more than 20 years ago, I was a student, and I had the chance to meet with amazing women. That taught me what dignity means. And I think naturally, today I've landed at that organization, the head of the organization that really stands for dignity for all.

Jeff [00:04:56] Tell me, a, is there a story in the early days that got you particularly excited about working in Africa? You know, someone that you worked with or an organization you work for that prepares you for Tostan?

Elena [00:05:08] Oh, indeed. And it sticks to my bones. It sticks to my esteem. And I would never forget that image. So one day I was in Burkina Faso, one of my first leadership position at the salt mine at the firm, the center for women Well-Being, in a very remote areas in Ouagadougou. Looking up. And I see this lady coming in very slowly. So immediately the the midwives comes to me and said she needs to deliver now. And so the woman delivered and a beautiful baby, a beautiful daughter. But it turns out that the woman who delivered was a child herself. She was 14. Now. I remember having this picture with a baby holding a baby. And that moment has really gave me so much passion for youth, for this war. I thought about the right to her education, what could have been her life if she would have gone to school? What was going to be the future of that child? Yeah. So that's an image that sticks today, every single moment. Again, to my bones, I would say, and gives me the motivation really, to support colleagues that are doing amazing work on the field, really to make sure they show up with the quality of the work that we need to give to people that are vulnerable, but not the privileged, that I certainly have to have education and care. You know, dignity is really what we stand for today at Toston as well.

Jeff [00:06:45] Tombstone's work is centered around their Community Empowerment program. Here is how it works. After Toston is invited by a community, it sends a trained facilitator who often has the same ethnic background as the community members. The facilitator lives there for three years and conducts classes three times a week as subjects like human rights, democracy, hygiene, literacy, and other issues the community wants to discuss. In this way, instead of telling communities what to do, Tostan gives them the tools to make their own decisions.

Elena [00:07:20] We choose facilitators that have not gone to school necessarily, and they are fully proficient in their local languages because the program happens in the language in which people are able to express themselves deeply, because the work around social norms is about being vulnerable, is about, you know, discussing important themes that sometimes are certain in the past have represented a taboo. So the local language allows people to be, you know, fully present, to be fully participating. And that's particularly true for women. Examples of women that in the first place or the first period of the classes, they're very shy. They kind of, you know, cover themselves to talk. And then, you know, little by little, they blossom, they start taking the floor. Some of them have gone to run for office. Some of them have been elected at national level without having gone to school, because of the confidence that they have gained in the process, and because thanks to the education, to the information that was provided to the program, they know how to articulate them and they know they are confident that they can represent their communities. I remember a wonderful meeting with the leaders from The Gambia. We have a nice clip that we recorded was my first visit as a CEO to the field. I met these women and one of them told me, you know, I kind of knew I was a leader, but you know, everyone around me was not open to recognize that. But then the Tostan program team and I had that opportunity to show that, you know, first of all, I got the information. So I was confident I was even more confident. But then people around me, men in particular, recognize that I could be a leader. And then she, was elected to the national, Assembly. Sorry, in, in a special commission for women. So the community empowerment program really provides the opportunity for this journey. And it's, of course, information about health, about hygiene. But it starts with the principle of human rights. We deal with principles that people can relate to in their daily lives the right to education, the right to have the right to have a name. And then people have the opportunity to discuss and of course, to learn so you know their rights also about their responsibilities. What can we do as a community to achieve that vision of well-being that we worked on? How can we move knowledge into action? And that's the role now, the Community Management Committee, which we create and help the community establish, as an elected body, which is mostly composed by women. And that's the only thing that we ask the community to do to elect a majority of women. It's a body of 17 members, and we ask at least for nine women to be elected. And this community management committee represent really the governing body of the community and organize the community to do actions, according, of course, to the needs that have been identified and the projects that, you know, the community has decided as a priority. Now, I think what is also important, that we do work a lot with religious leaders, religious plays, an amazing and important role in the system that we address. And we also work with elected officials. So with the governance bodies that are supposed also to protect and to provide the for, for communities, for them to thrive. And that has consequences at the national level. We see change happen. At the systemic level. We see social change then transform into system change.

Jeff [00:11:02] This change in social norms, I find fascinating. And the tools that you use to do that and how you bring it back to the community itself and you all focused on female genital cutting, is one of the first priorities to eliminate that, as well as child marriage and others. Can you talk about those problems and give us examples of how you address them at the community level?

Elena [00:11:25] Yeah, the the funny story, I would say none of this is because there's no nothing funny, of course, is that the curriculum has never been created to address, you know, some practices in the first place. But you're right. Have to say that we are so proud of our work in that area. And. And also the achievement that the communities that have done, with the with the building of a movement in West Africa, they call it the social half week, really thousands of community declaring the intention to abandon female genital cutting and child marriage really spreading and fueling, really a movement for, you know, human rights and dignity. That wasn't the intention of the model in the first place. But precisely because we are dressed, you know, important conversation, truly entrenched norms that not only refer to the group of reference, also they are social norms because they refer to the social network, but also because we came from a place of respect, of no judgment of what was happening. But we took it from a way of analyzing values. So it's a value deliberation process that we propose by asking communities in an open conversation in a safe space, of course, because the classes of the of the program represent a safe space for people to express themselves, we provide that context for people to really analyze the values, reinforce them like, you know, the not for your daughter, you know, why is female genital cutting implemented? Because the mothers and fathers love their daughters. They want their daughters to be married. And so in those ethnical groups where female genital crafting is recognized as a way to enter a space where you can be married, you are accepted socially, of course, that becomes the norm is associated with that value. But when you know you are given the information and this is what we have done, we have given information with no judgment about the harmful consequences of that practice. Of course, then communities ask themselves the question is really the practice aligned with the values, which is law? If we are fighting, if girls are dying, are we really true to our intention, which is love? And so people reinforce again their values by saying we abandon the practice, the social norms, but they come to in they can't do it individually. They need to do it as a group. And that's why the the public declaration are so important enough. People need to see that enough people are abandoning. And that's very symbolic and of course, cannot be perhaps on the percent abandonment, but certainly contributes to that movement. And again, the fact that it is done implicitly with no without saying you should do it, which you should not do it. You know, the theory again, is telling us that there is a psychological reactance in telling people what to do. They know better what they want for their lives and what they need to do. And so Tostan was really, again, coming from a place of respect with the information, with no judgment, with no imposition, with no agenda.

Jeff [00:14:46] You've been operating in over 10,000 communities over the last number of years, and, I still am impressed by the process. You identify this local facilitator who has been trained. They come in and commit to living in a community for three years or so, and they have these elected committees that are put together to change social norms, but not social norms that they want to change. Not that you tell them they need to change. You know, that's a long, many meeting, many open discussions. People get threatened by some of this process. You know what? What problems have you encountered? You know, trying to move to change these social norms. What issues to do you see, or have you experienced the first.

Elena [00:15:39] You know, important backlash was when the women of Malecon, the Bambara, who were really the first who said, we want to talk about the tradition, which was the female genital cutting. They they could not even express the word. Back in 1997. And they decided to abandon alone. But they were not in consultation with their social network of preference. And so there was a huge backlash. And at that moment, our inspirational leader, Imam Themba. Yeah. What I that unfortunately just passed away a few months ago has told us that you need to go and meet, as you said, lots of meetings, lots of convenings and it takes courage, perseverance and lots of diplomacy. He used to say, and now he's recognizes the father and I would say the creator of what we call the organized diffusion, which is the process of talking to your husband, talking to your neighbor, and asking to talk to another person and talk to another neighbor, and then a village to move to another village. So it is really the people that take it to the next level. Again, in a process of adopting learners outside the classes and sharing the knowledge and then adopting other villages. And that's really what created that movement and fueled really the process. Now, what I think is also very important is that this is indeed a patient process. And when patient means is that there are people that disagree. And then, you know, sometimes you need, you know, to just move on and respect their views and maybe come back later. And, you know, particularly with the religious leaders, I think the work that has been done is so powerful because some of the more resistant leaders have gone back, have come back, and we have invited them several times seminars, conversations. No one has the ambitions to teach them anything. This is not about teaching, but it's about discussing and discussing values. There has been moments where in some areas, and you know what's happening in the Gambia right now, which is quite, you know, concerning, is a perfect example for that.

Jeff [00:18:07] Elena is referring to a recent effort by political and religious leaders in Gambia. Their goal is to repeal the ban on FGC that was passed eight years ago. That would have huge consequences in a country where already three quarters of women are between 15 and 49 have undergone FGC.

Elena [00:18:26] A group of parliamentarians in the Gambia has organized the themselves to present a motion to repeal the law against FGC. So that has created, of course, an amazing, crazy kind of, sense of astonishment even by all civil society organization, other governments, you know, officials, the, all partners, I would say, from all forms say, oh, the Gambia has taken long time ago a commitment. So on, on, on that global level. But that proves that the law, you know, is not enough to address these issues. One of the arguments, of course, of the, of this group of parliamentarians was that this is something that the Western UN has brought to us. Everyone is happy with that. To see the Gambians certainly are happy, women in particular. And so the Western are imposing us to abandon these practices that are actually very, you know, important for our tradition and for our, you know, values. And so the same weekend, the Saturday 120 communities in the upper River region in the Gambia had a a celebration of again, wanted to public abandon, not a female genital cutting and child marriage and share that you know indeed this was a process that came within and then. Thought, you know, coming together, deciding together. And no one has imposed, of course, anything on them. And so that was very symbolic that change do happen. But it has to happen in a way that is organic with them, with patience and with a lot of respect and of course, and sensibility with regards to the values and religious values of communities.

Jeff [00:20:11] While touchstone tries to focus on the communities it serves. It also shares its methods with hundreds of other organizations, and this creates a whole network of locally empowered organizations that can support each other.

Elena [00:20:25] I think I'm going to hurt you, Jeff, when you said, you know, locally led, network supported, I think we are strong believers of the power of networks. And so we realized the and we have done this consistently now since 2015, that it was very important for us to amplify impact and leading to that dream, which is dignity for all, to really, put those tools out there and for them to benefit other organizations that, in their respective geography, are really doing fantastic work. But if better equipped, can even have more enhanced outcomes. So with regards to their sector of intervention, because, you know, there's the community empowerment program is a holistic model. It's about so many areas because all these the metrics are interconnected. You can't talk about education if you don't talk about health, if you don't talk about nutrition, if you don't talk about family planning. So our approach is very holistic because people are multidimensional. We are a small organization. We don't have the ambition to be everywhere, but we think we have tools that can really serve so many of our sister organization, and in particular the communities that they serve. After 30 years of doing this, I think we have a kind of a moral obligation to be vocal about what we have seen working again with no ambition to say, we know better for you what you should do. But here is what we have learned. This is what we have seen, and these are the data. Because I think evidence plays a major role into this. So we are really we have really invested a lot in making sure we have evidence based approaches. I'm a strong believer that smaller sometimes is, stronger but better with a network perspective. And so the network, of course, is much bigger. It's not about us. It's really beyond us.

Jeff [00:22:17] It's a wonderful goal. And I'm glad you're you're doing that and bringing it together. And I think it's really brilliant to think about what it means to flourish in Africa and in each of the different regions. And it's different in the tools are different. If you have any last, you know, parting words on what you would advise people who are looking at these kinds of cities, some catalyst roles, doing the kind of job you're doing and trying to bring about to the rest of the world. What would you advise people to do if they're looking to try to get more involved?

Elena [00:22:47] I feel such a sense of pride from what I've seen, you know, happening again with people, when people are given the opportunity to really realize the full potential, people that have not gone to school, that they go up to do amazing things. So I think my advice would be, let's seize the potential that is around us and let's work together in the ecosystem, really listening and understanding really where the challenges are. But with, from a place of respect and no judgment and, you know, willing, committed intentionally to work together. But I, I think I would say let's do it faster. I see I really feel the sense of urgency. I think we are sitting on pressing issues. Climate change is one, of course. And the, you know, the continent is highly affected. We need patience. You know, a change takes time. And so as much as I feel the urgency, that doesn't mean that change needs or we need to see results immediately. We need to be brave and bold in choosing approaches that have long lasting change. And so I think that taking a step back now, being ambitious to know better, but really to listen and to listen from people that are affected, and really guide better decisions.

Jeff [00:24:25] That's it for today's show. Please don't forget to subscribe to System Catalyst so you don't miss out on the new episodes. Also, do us a huge favor by reading our podcast ID, leaving us a review. Thank you so much for joining us, and we'll catch you all in the next episode. Before we go, I'd like to thank our producers at human Group media. We'd also like to thank our incredible network of partners who are supporting our mission the School Foundation, the Aspen Institute, Echoing Green, Dr. K Foundation, Maverick Collective, Virgin Unite. She released their own Africa outreach project, Boldly Go Philanthropy, senior goes for Global Nexus and New Profit. If you're interested in becoming a system catalyst, you'll like to learn more about our partners. Please visit System catalyst.com.